Revenue Champions
Revenue Champions

Episode 62 · 3 weeks ago

62: How sales can use content to close deals (with Chet Lovegren, Director of Sales Development at Pavilion)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This week, Ryan Reisert, Brand Ambassador @Cognism is joined by Chet Lovegren, Director of Sales Development @Pavilion & podcast host to talk about how sales can use content to close more deals. In this episode, Ryan and Chet talk about how Sales Representatives can incorporate content in their sales process, how to address pricing and negotiation, being buyer centric and more.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Revenue Champions. You've got me, your host, Brian Reiser. Today we're joined by Chet, up friend, a k a the sales doctor. Chet brings over ten years of sales experience to this conversation, very strong passion around content. You'RE gonna enjoy this conversation, as we talked about how sales reps can incorporate content in their process, as well as some of the more interesting conversations around how to address pricing as well as negotiations in the sales process. Tune in, you're gonna enjoy the show. All right, welcome everybody to another episode of Revenue Champions. You got me, the host, Ryan Reiser, and I am here today with a passionate, fired up guest, Chet. You want to introduce yourself to those who may not know you? Who Does Chet be in this world? Yeah, thanks, Ryan, happy to be here. Um, chut Chut lovegren M I called myself the sales doctor, self proclaimed title. Nobody gave that title to me, so it's it's probably not well well deserved or well earned. It was just, I think they said you can't give yourself nicknames, but nobody wanted to give me a nickname. So I said screw it and I went and went forward and gave my own nickname. I'm not part of the cool kids club anymore, so I nobody wanted to give me a nickname. I had to make my own club. Um. But yeah, just, you know, really passionate above and beyond just talking about like sales tactics and methodologies and things which you can find from a number of people online that are really smart in that space. I really like pursuing things that people don't think about traditionally. Big One for me is like like content creation. Right, I'm I'm a huge fan of content, huge fan of content creation, not just to create something to put out there, to get your name out there, but more importantly, to actually drive, UM, some education to people. Right. Um, I have my own podcast. When I first started it I would get like eight to ten viewers an episode and somebody asked me, after like eight episodes, does that bother you that you have like a hundred collective downloads across eight episodes? I said no, because that means either one person went and listen to my ass talk for, you know, a hundred times and found some interesting insight, or a hundred people listened to it at once and found something interesting, and that's, at the end of the day, all that really matters. I mean that's you know, people, people so many times want to jump out on their own and be their own entrepreneur and start making all this money and all these things, but it's that collective experience over time, Um, that leads people to become the best founders and entrepreneurs. And so I think over time you continue making content, you continue making mistakes and you just grow time and time again. So while sales doctors in the name, we can talk about sales forever, but I kind of like talking to more in line about the things that I think can affect your pipeline that people don't traditionally think about, one of those big things being content creation and cross collaboration, alignment with other departments. Amazing. Well, I think it's gonna be a really solid conversation today. It's clear you're pretty passionate about this and what kicked off this topic was around a cold calling is on life support and a lot of times it's because we're not supporting it with things like content, and so, uh, obviously I'm a massive believer in the phone. But I also understand the power of content, uh, like you. Uh. You know, I started doing the live cold calling um about to two years ago, two and a half years ago now. James, James Boden Um, was right at the beginning of that, with me and Um producing the show on the back end, and I think I had half a person showing up for a long time, a long time on twitch, and I think that half a person was James, uh doing the show, like trying to play with stuff and so Um. But you know, you just commit to that kind of core belief that if somebody, just one person, can get some value from it and it kind of snowballs. And if I didn't do that too and a half years ago, but we wouldn't be talking today right because of Um, the work that that live show did. It helped people realize the ideas I have around cold calling and ultimately lead to uh, the brand inbassador role I have now with cognizant and how people think about the phone. You think about me in a lot of ways and so um. But I'm a huge fan that if you're just calling, it's not enough. You've got to be able to compound that conversation into relevant content and meet your buyer where they want to receive information, and most often it's not going to be with an ambush call. Right. That's just the starting point. It's a great entry point to break through the noise. But, um, how do you feel about content creation? I know you talked about a little bit ahead of time, but how do you think about content creation when it comes to the individual versus the organization? Is that the company's job or is it the reps job to create the content necessary to make a successful when we're calling? Great Question. It's everybody's job, T L D R. It's everybody's job. Marketing already knows that it's their job and I'm not here to, you know, poop on marketing, but they've got to do a better job of it because, you know, I've I've worked across eight different company, two as a sales leader, in the last three years,...

...and I've seen zero marketing people reach out to the people at the company that are talking to prospects all day long to create their collateral. And so that's a big problem. Right. So we gotta do a better job. We've got to do a more qualitative job of it. We gotta quick gating our content. Nobody wants to call your gated leads anyway. Right now somebody downloaded a Webinarn't. Nobody needs White Paper Industry report. You know your SDRs and eight he is. Don't want to talk to that person anyway. And reality is that person is probably neither educated nor warm enough to actually buy. Um, maybe after like three downloads in a row and you're using some sort of sentiment score. I I get that right. But like a first content piece, like stop calling content right. It should be demo or pricing for inbound right. Everything else should be outbound ABS strategy. Um. So marketing has to do a better job, but it also falls on salespeople and C s people as well. They need to create content in their industry and people will get a really up in it about. Well, you know, I have this awesome TIKTOK and I don't want to mix my work and my personal. Guess what, it's really easy to create multiple accounts on things now. So just go create another tiktok. Make that your Tiktok for your industry. You work in the steel industry or you work in logistics, like go become someone that's spreading that information. In that industry and not just not just the what, but also the how. I think we're talking a little bit earlier. Like, especially with like tiktok. It's a lot of like if you want to do better at business, you should get referrals, if you want to do better at cold calling, you should use the script and get training. Well, yeah, no, DUB but like how. So talk more about the how, like okay, so how do I get a job? Like how do I how do I write a good resume that stands out? How do I avoid all the ATS filters? Um, you know, how should I take a personality test? So I'm saying the things that the sales leader that's hiring wants to hear, because at the end of the day, I would be a good hire. But maybe there's some pre cognitive bias built into that assessment test that doesn't serve my background appropriately and kind of, you know, pushes me off to the side. So there's like there's tons of like informational, tiny little nuggets of information you can you can give people to educate them. Um, you know, I'm not a fan of the Gary v Just Post Post, post, post post, but especially on Tiktok, if you're mixing. If you want to post three times a day, you know you can post one comedic what I do with sales doctors. I post one comedic thing, I post one educational thing. I'll typically get a question from someone on that educational thing and you can respond to a question with a video. So then there's my third one. Right. So really I'm only creating one piece of content, but I'm posting every day. I do believe you should post every day, but it's okay too if the post isn't, if we're talking now linkedin some big long, super special, spaced out, correctly formatted type thing. You could post something really simple, but post something insightful. Don't keep telling people what they should do, but, more importantly, show them how. And a lot of people go, well, well, how you know? How do you do that right? I'm telling people what to do. How do you do it right? Well, how do you do that? Well, work hand in hand with your marketing team. Right. Part of the reason someone would go to buy something and part of the is because they want the education right. They want to know a better way to do it. I been evaluating some tools lately, some sales engagement tools. We know that the Holy Trinity of sales engagement tools out there. But I'm I'm looking at some different ones because what I'm doing right now is not super call focused. So maybe I can pay lower for something else, because they don't have that robust call functionality that you get out of, you know, certain products and every call. It's interesting that I find myself asking them, well, how do you do this? And they tell me and I'm like that's interesting. Even though I've been hired to consult for people before, I'm still learning myself. And so they are the expert. And you know why, and I don't know if I can mention software companies here. If I've been doing anything, you know why. VIDEYARD is the expert on how to send an intro email because they have over a thousand customers and twenty five users. I'm just one person. So they have the collective knowledge of twenty five thou people and their data and their statistics and their best practices. I just have one and so it's a similar thing like when I was working with pavilion, I would always tell the sales development reps, I'm like, you've gotta understand we have ten thousand members, we have over a hundred and fifty B two B customers. You talk to a sales leader about training, professional DEVELOPM mentorship and career support, they've maybe been a VP of sales twice and maybe a sales leader once before that as a director, so they have three times of experience. We have this vast ten thousand member base and a hundred and fifty business base of experience. We are the experts and so work hand in hand with the information that you gather from the people in your company. Customer success can get you a lot of data points right, a lot of statistics. They can help filter in the case studies for marketing. Marketing can provide those case studies. I am a fan of case studies. I'm a fan of a case study that lists the company you're talking about there before state, thereafter state, and three bullet points. I'm not a fan of a five page case study that I have to decipher, that has a bunch of confusing graphics because somebody in branding had to give their cousin a job right or as somebody is at somebody's agency. But I am a big fan of like getting to the meat and potatoes of it and bringing that education people. So how do I accomplish becoming that expert? Surround yourself with people and CS. Anytime a sale those person specifically starts at the company, I tell them...

...go learn from CS. First, sales people are going to tell you the sales way to answer things. Cs as a crystal ball. They're going to tell you all the stuff that your your prospects are seeing six months, twelve months, two years down the road. And salespeople are also your competitors, so they're going to give you the sales answer because you're also their competitor as another salesperson. Learn more from CS. Route yourself there, understand your customer base, the results that you're achieving, and then go back to marketing to help design that collateral and create that collateral. And then go create your own collateral and educate people. I mean within lines of branding, right. But there's nothing stopping you. Unless your marketing department really is like Hey, don't go make a tiktok video representing us talking about how to increase your your throughput strategy in your warehouse, then that's a different conversation. But it's it's easy. Pc you work in logistics, go, go make a thirty second informational video on what somebody should be doing if they're struggling with X, Y Z problem, and like a three line sentence on like high level how to solve it. But you have to cross collaborate and work with other departments. And you know, we could go on for days about alignment, going above and beyond metrics. It has to do with actual collaboration and project management. But that's that's really where I think content creation is so impactful and who should be owning it? Really everybody, but the people that are owning it right now need to do a better job of it and be more flexible with it as well. So there's a ton to unpack there, UH, and I'm curious about a couple of things. The first, the first thing that comes to mind here is you're bringing up Tiktok a lot and Um, when I think about B two B UH engagement, audience engagement, I immediately go well, most B two B people, Um, that I think about reaching they've got to be on Linkedin. Right, but you're saying TIKTOK ISN'T TIKTOK consumer based? Right? Are My is my audience going to be on on Tiktok Um and I know you mentioned linkedin or Tiktok whatever, but how do you know what the right platform might be when we're creating this content? So let's assume we do have a uh, we have something to share, its unique, interesting point and we have a couple of House let's follow your framework. How do I choose where I create that content? Do you have any idea of where, where people might how to think about where to start or doesn't matter? What are your your opinions on that? So it depends on where your audience lives. Right when I was selling logistics software, those people are not on Linkedin. And if I would say, what was the joke, we always said like nine times out of ten if your if your prospect has a Linkedin page, nine times out of ten they don't have a picture and have less than fifty followers. Like if you had a prospect that had a linkedin page with a picture and more than a hundred followers, you were like man, this person's business savvy, you know. Um, so they didn't live there, so it wasn't super relevant. Now, where it was relevant was channel partnerships. Do interest from other companies that could build on top of our a p I other people that could be partners and send US referrals. So our business manager, shout out Brandon Burns, did an incredible job of, you know, working through those channels to talk to other software companies that can plug it on top of us and and other consultants that were active on Linkedin, that worked in the industry and things of that nature. Um, for me it's crazy, but Tiktok to me is evergreen and that's for one of two reasons. Number one, people forget that millennials are aged forty one. Okay, millennials are not nineteen to thirty, they're not twenty five to thirty five, the twenty five to forty one. I'm not ages here, but if you're forty, I'm gonna assume if you're probably in some decision making capacity. Right. And millennials are on Tiktok and you're seeing more and more people jump on Tiktok at an a at an older age. Right. It's not the high school dancing APP anymore. It's really taken hold. And so, in addition to that, year, two years, three years down the road, that twenty person who's twenty five doing stupid dances on Tiktok when they were an SDR is now an str manager because at the age of twenty eight and they're still interacting on Tiktok. So not only are you planting the seed and curating your future, buying, I would say buying base right or your your funnel, but you're also reaching up people that you can get to now because more and more people are just using TIKTOK. The second thing is, if you, if you are into Tiktok and you've been reading the news lately, tiktok search engine optimization capabilities are about to blow google out of the water. So, like you can go on Tiktok and search TIKTOK S C oh and there's like videos or people like best restaurant eat in Vegas. They type that in the search bar. Then there's all these awesome videos that are showcasing Vegas restaurants. Or even like now it's like, you know, Um, best framework for a discovery call. You can look that up and you'll find stuff from salespeople, Um, that, some some that are, you know, Gurus, some people that are actually good at their job. Um. So you have to decipher that right. Take it all with a grain of salt, eat the fig spit out the bones. But that's with anything right.

It's like a yelp review. If somebody can hate, to hate a place and give him a bad yelp review for a Vegas restaurant, somebody could love it, even if it's not that good, and give him a great review. So you have to take everything with a grain of salt. But that's just like Google. Um, but the way that they're interacting and showcasing their search engine results as opposed to Google, people think that they're actually onto something. And if you've also read more about Tiktok, you understand that it's you know, it's a Chinese platform and the Chinese version is completely different than the US version and has e commerce capabilities built into it, completely different engagement tools. Like I mean, if I was shopify, I'd be a little scared, because I think Tiktok for the individual. Um, you know B two C e commerce. You Know Entrepreneur. It's it's gonna it's gonna blow things out of the water, which is gonna be crazy. Um. To your point about consumers, though, it's just human nature that you, as a buyer in a B two B sale. are still going to have some of your precognitive buying patterns when you buy, the same way that you go and buy a car, even as a as a really awesome salesperson, a great cold collar. The same things that you know you're going to buy in a B two B sale you're gonna do when you buy a car. So it's the same thing for tiktok right. The same way that I'm going to consume absorbed content take call to actions as an individual, I'm gonna do it as a B two B buyer as well. I think it's really only us as salespeople where we get in this cloud of like, and I say this because I've worked in an industry where I'm selling. The salespeople and revenue go to market leaders, whatever you want to call it, all day long and I understand there's these frameworks and these emails and these ways that we want to be sold to and buy, but we we get so closed off in that tech world, tech sales, that we forget that there's these billion other people that are decision makers in different industries that we'll look at a five page email and not be scared away of it, because it's like we don't know any better. I'm not saying right really lengthy emails, but we get so caught up in like the perfect cold email. It's like, dude, it depends, though, like if I'm talking to VP of sales, yeah, maybe I want to make sure like I'm top notch and I'm leveraging some resources. Um, but at the end of the day, dude, people still use their consumer buying habbits when they're buying B two B M. I think that, especially those who sell to sales and sales, sales and marketing, which is a good chunk of the folks that are on Linkedin, probably a good chunk of the people that our tuning in here. Um, revenue champions podcasts. Uh, you know, you probably are aware of all the best practices that tech sales, Um and the sales services businesses on Linkedin will tell you what to do, but there's a whole another world out there and Um, you know, at the end of the day, uh, some of the things you're sharing right now are so vital because people don't buy the way we want them to buy, to buy on their own. They have their own process, Um, which is Um, something you talk about often is the buyer centric, being more biocentric. Right. You just had a post recently around Um, uh lowering the barrier of entry for your services or your products. Um, you know, the gated content movement, et CETERA. So, Um, I know we're talking a lot about a content creation, but also what about distribution? Right, how do I, how do I actually um get access to the information on either marketings, creating or as an individual? That's easy. But Um, what would be your best advice for teams that might be looking to implement some of the things you shared on your post around moving away from gated and moving away from selling to uh content downloads Um and focusing more on just getting the information that our buyers are seeking? To use a great story with vidyard. You know they're experts. Any any ideas on a team that's so punch drunk on M quels to make that movement away from Um content for the purposes of some vanity metric to Um to actually lower that Barry of entry? So sorry, I was taking a sip of water. Revenue Champions podcast for the Wind Gold Star for actually doing a little bit of research and bringing something up. I've been on a lot of podcasts and nobody's taking the time to look at my linkedin so thanks for that. But yes, I was very passionate about that post because I've actually been evaluating a ton of software tools Um for the last two months and it just blows me away. Like I haven't I haven't boughten a software tool in a while and I think just coming from pavilion and understanding how focused we were on the sales process and like the importance of doing things right and making sure you're hitting on all the things you need to it blew me away, Ryan, how bad sales people are right now and how much resistance we put in front of me wanting to see a freaking look at your software and just understand if this is a hundred thousand dollars a year or fifty tho dollars a year right, like, give me. I don't need like. I don't need to tell me it's t a month. I don't need that exact pricing. I need to understand...

...what tear I'm in when I'm looking at your product, because you don't have your pricing published online, you don't have a five minute overview of your software online, and I'm gonna Probably Piss a lot of people off by saying this, because I know we're so drunk, like you said, on the M Quel process and our our sales process and we're so good at this and we're so sneaky, because they have to sit through four hours of calls to get pricing, because now they're tied to the program and they put all this time in and so now I can tell them whatever price and they're just gonna buy it. Whatever your methodology or your trick or your tactic is, you're not educating me and you're not really helping me and it's really frustrating. And I was even sitting on a call with one of our field enablement managers at a company and working alongside and we were like back channeling on slack during this demo and I'm like, I had a forty five minute discovery with this guy after a ten minute call with an SDR we are thirty minutes into this hour long demo. I still don't know what what the Oh no, sent me. Oh did I think I went on mute there in my bed. Yeah, I was gonna say I think we lost shake it. Can you repeat the we'll get this edited out, but you were lost right at and it was you. I know you're passion about that. We lost the audio right when you said I was on a forty five minute demo. But if you just start there, I was on a forty five minute demo and then we can get that cut. My hand slipped and I think I pressed like alt a or something down here. All right, so it was. It was insane because I'm working with this company right now, helping them build their sales DEV team, and I had their field enablement manager on a demo with me and her and I were back channeling via slack during the Demo because it blew me away because I had said on a ten minute call with an SDR after I has to see a demo, a forty five minute discovery with the guy, and then thirty minutes into the hour long demo and I still didn't know any roundabout pricing. I didn't know what tier of pricing they fell and compared to their competitors or other people that I'm evaluating. And I had never even seen the landing page of the software. Like you log into the software, you start using the tool. Here's what it looks like. I had not even seen that yet. Couldn't find it on Youtube. Couldn't find it on their company page. Couldn't find a vimeo link that somebody forgot to unrestrict somewhere along the line. Nothing. Couldn't get any information off G two and that I am just like so blown away. That is bananas to me, of course. Yeah, I'm still evaluating. I guess their process work because I'm still looking at it. Their price is considerable to what we need with the feature set. So yeah, they're still in the running. It didn't deter me off of it, but I'm also a bit of an oddball. That might actually deter some people off. There are forty, five and fifty year old decision makers who, out of spite, would say, you know what, this is too much work. I just want to know the pricing and take a look at the demo. And Yeah, you can't bend to your prospect and say, okay, this is the exact estimate. But I actually put out a tiktok video covering this because someone was asking that question. They were like, Hey, what do you do when you get on the discovering the person so adamant about pricing, and I did a response video on on how I handle that in the past. And how do you how do you handle that? I mean, I think it's a great I think it's a great topic. Um, what I'm seeing myself because I've gone through this, you know, dating myself a little bit here, but you know, I've been through the ringers fifteen years of this stuff. You can see so many of the practices that are deployed right now are so old school. Sales trainers, stuff like you don't provide pricing. You know, you uh, you gotta hold back. Um, where to your point, earlier, buyers just by differently. Now you know the information is available somewhere. We're gonna go find it, you know, like millennials by differently than Gen x period, uh, and so uh. You know, and where the buyers these days. And so, when it comes to where these problems CIST, is that that's what's been trained for the last like fifteen years. You know, you can't share this information because it's gonna miss out on an opportunity. How do you know what the range is going to be? It's like, well, I don't think a seller wants to be spending an hour and a half with somebody if there if like you're if you're prices X and I only have why to spend right now. That's all I have, because a lot of these organizations think you can create budget. You can't, and a lot of areas you can't. You can't just create. You can't create money for people to spend on your Prott to services, although all the trainers out there and say, Oh yeah, if the gap is big enough, they're gonna spend. I don't know. I've been I've been at this for a while and I just don't think it's true. They either have money to invest in things where they don't. Now, you can create budget with success over time. Um, you know, sometimes, but not all the all the time. But if the budget is not allogic allocated, you're not going anywhere right. That's it's just it's just B S, in my opinion. Rights, just my opinion.

You could call it however you want to call it, but you know, I've been through the wringers and so I see that. But how do you deal with it? What's your response on how to deal with that, because I've got my approach right, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that and I think that's you know, since we're talking about the house. Let's knowledge here. Do Love it, and yeah, like so you can. Let me, let me be clear, in the in the term of gaps selling. You can show me that this is not just a problem for the sales development team, but here's how we can add value to your a e team for this tool, and then I can take that back to my senior leaders that I'm cross collaborating with in our procurement department and go hey, look, dollars is gonna lead to a r o I right, as opposed to a five thousand dollar investment that leads to R O I. You can do that at the end of the day. If, if, if I don't have the cross those departments, I can't do anything. You know what I mean, like if it's still out of our budget electively, yeah, that budgets are anybody. Here's the thing that the sales trainers that say that have never worked in a sales leadership job where they had to wrestle with a CFO for money. That's why they say and that's why I'm so freaking tired of people who read a book once and then go I'm gonna be a trainer. You know what I mean, because it's like, Dude, you've got to experience our woes in order to actually speak to us, because I'll tell you, I've worked with nine CFOS in the last five years and if you don't have budget for something, even when you have budget for something, good luck. Like it is a tough back. CFOs are there for a reason. Yeah, that that's exactly right, and that's for good reason, right, because that's uh, that's the plan, and for good reason. You should stick to your to your plan. You know, you can't just be buying everything that comes your way, and I think that the reason why we get lost in this sometimes is that there are so many organizations that have been lacks of daisical, if you will, with their their money. Sometimes, right, they they buy everything that comes to them. The Shiny Object Syndrome with the funded tech companies, especially if you're selling a lot of fun to tech companies. But that, as we move into this procession, that's going to change a lot too, right. Um. So, anyway, how do you? How do you? How do you approach that? How do you approach that conversation? If someone's really adamant about I gotta See Price. How Price? I'm curious to hear what your recommendation is there. If I'm especially two lenses, if I'm an SDR and someone's adamant early on, and then maybe also if I'm an a. If you don't mind, I love to hear thoughts on that and I promise I'm not stalling. I have a good I have good lens for both. I do want to say on the heels of what you're talking about, about Gen z Um and gen x. The trick is that they buy very similarly. They consume content different, but they buy very similarly. The problem is that Gen x is so used to these old school sales training habits, these Hydra pricing until the very last minute, withhold information. They're so used to it that they put up with it. Gen you know, millennials are like dude's this is stupid right, like so we're we're just sick of it. That's the difference. We buy very similarly. It's just gen x they're anchored to expect that. We're kind of getting tired of it as millennials Um. So that's that's something that I think is really important for people to understand is it's just we need to adapt, right. We need to change the way, especially, like you said, with information flying everywhere. And if you really want to be that stringer on your pricing, I'll go figure something out. Like you're not the only, only name of the game. So all right, SDRs. How do we handle it? So somebody really wants to know pricing before they take a meeting, I tell people that you need to have a set amount that you can stay say, our based software starts at this. You need to be transparent with that, because you're not doing yourself any favors if you hide it. So our you know what, Ryan, I'm really I'm really glad that you're interested to know what the cost of implementing something like this would be. Frankly, I'm not the best person to speak to about that. I can let you know that our based software starts at nine per user per month. That should you should be enabling your str team to do that and then if they start getting it, so if I have six years go you know, hey, I really appreciate that you're really interested in understanding, like six months downline, what this would look like. The best person to speak to be Ryan. He's one of our top account executives. He's familiar with X Y Z persona vertical, whatever you want to say. Um, you know, would you be interested in having that conversation with him and learning a little bit more so you can walk away with all the information you need to see if it weren't a further conversation? But most people don't enable their strs. You say, don't talk about price, don't do it, don't do it, don't do it. You're doing yourself a disservice because then you start throwing, you know, trash into the pipeline that Aes come back and, you know, mumble grumble about these unqualified opportunities. So you're not doing anybody any favors from an a e perspective, when somebody's really interested in in price, what I would typically do as an account executive and what I've advised people that are in a sales function is really just being upfront and reframing that objection in your head. Anytime I talk about objection handling, it's like actively listen to what they're saying, but understand they say something you should be hearing something different. Even...

...even at high level str objection handling. You say, I'm busy. I think. Okay, Great, I can save you a lot of time and money with whatever I'm offering. Based on your persona right, you say I'm not interested. That means that you know what product or service I'm talking about and you might even be the decision maker behind it because you know that you're not interested, because you know what it is. Right. So I hear things differently. I think that's the first step. Is, anytime we're handling objections, we have to change our framing and look at it growth mindset, as an opportunity, not a blocker. And so people get adamant about pricing. I go you know what, I can give you a rough estimate of what it would be based on the information I know now, but I simply don't know enough about your business if you're saying, Hey, I need a contract right now, to give you that price. The reason the pricing could change as we go through the process as well is because once you see the software, there might be things you want to take out of the software and not use or things versions of the software you might want to use, and those prices could change. Right. It could go up, it could go down and at the end of the day, Ryan, if you see the software and you go wow, this is complete trash. I don't like it. It wouldn't even matter if it was free. Right. So I'm more than happy to give you a rough estimate right now, with the understanding and the expectation moving forward that it could fluctuate based on your knees. Does that sound fair? Boom, dude, that was less than thirty seconds and now it's like yeah, it's totally fair. So what are we looking at? Well, you're talking about six account executives, six SDRs. You want your directors to both have access in your str manager Um. You know, I could tell you a ballpark. You'd be between fifteen hundred to two thousand a month with, you know, three to five k implementation and onboarding costs for your first ninety days. And then you just shut up and let them give you whatever, whatever objection they're going to give you, or or they'll just move on. Go, okay, yeah, sounds good. Then you're like all right, sweet, which is the perfect world scenario. But be up, punt and set that in in those discovery calls. I love just saying with the expectation that, moving forward, this could happen. I say that to prevent getting ghosted. Hey, I want you to be okay and realize that I don't think no is a dirty word. At some point you're gonna get busy during this evaluation. You're not gonna answer an email, you're not going to answer a call, you're not gonna be able to get a contract signed back in my hands by the end of the week. Right. I recognize that it might be the same for me too. So let's just agree that if we get busy, we can tell each other no, but at least keep that open line of communication moving forward. Does that sound does that sound good? Yeah, that sounds great. When I learned that in I can tell you I've probably gotten ghosted three times it post discovery. In my life I have people that come back to me and would tell me I can't get this contract signed, we don't have budget to do it. I don't. I don't get ghosted because you set that expectation and they're like Damne, cool, this guy's awesome. All right, it's an open line of communication. I don't feel bad for you doing all this work and me saying no, Hey, I can't make that call, I got something going on. Hey, my boss said we couldn't move forward with this. It's too much out of our budget. Right, I don't get ghosted. Literally, I count on my hands how many times I've gotten ghosted since using that. But we just don't set those expectations and we think we have to play this game where it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm not my prospects bitch and I control the conversation. You know, get out of here. You're in this together. That's why, that's why they don't want to work with you. And you know, salespeople. Only three percent of people in the world trust sales people and marketers because we're still on different sides of the table. We need to walk around at partner with them, and that's how you do that, by saying, Hey, let's set these expectations. If I get married, my wife understands the expectations. Right. Me and my wife understand who we are what we're about in the expectations of this marriage. If we didn't, we'd probably be divorced by now, right, like. That's how it works, because things change over time. If you don't have the expectations of what you're trying to accomplish together and also individually, what are you doing? You know what I mean. Software is a marriage. Any sales really a marriage. That makes a lot of sense and I love your approach to this because I would. I would do the same thing. Um, you know, whenever pricing comes up early in opposite wow, um, it's funny use the marriage things say, oh you're you're already looking to get married. Huh. You know the type of thing it's like. I don't mind having and I think it's really important that you have that fallback on. Like, look, all of our stuff starts at right, starting out. I don't have enough information, but just so you know, we started at this with a budget of this right. Does that sound like it's even in the wheelhouse? We stop a conversation or if that's reasonable, we can. We can look at where it goes from there. But I don't know why people can't be armed with that. Um, if somebody freaks out at that starting at price, you're not going to magically convince them to that that number is gonna be okay at some point. I don't care how great of a gap seller you are. You know you're just not going to get somebody who freaks out about that. Um, I see it all the time. Um, there's no way I can reposition the way someone thinks about price. Price and costs are two different things, but you've gotta be able to display them. It starts at this, Um, with the budget of that. That's the the the the actual investment, and then you can start to reframe it on what the actual like you said before, r o I, and in a cost equation. But Um, but that's all later stage and you've got to get the information. And so I think that that's super important. And taking it from the context of a partnership from the beginning is so big. Somebody...

...people try to look at Um our prospect as adversaries. It's like, look, we're here because we're trying to create some miracles together, right, I get that from towns and ward law. Right, what kind of what kind of miracles are we trying to make to happen? Um, but we're in this together, right, I can either help you or I can't. That's it, Um, if you start there with this idea that I'm not here to pull one over on you. And and Um, it's not a zero, some some game, right, like Um, there's not a winner and a loser in this deal. It's it's a win win or it doesn't really make sense, Um, that that perspective is huge and Um, I know that a lot of teams really struggle with that. Right. Um. And you talk a lot about pricing. So I know we're talking about Um, how do you present it, but how would you advise teams on then getting into the negotiation, because this is coming up often a lot of your contents about where's it at, how to know how to deal with it? Linnel buyers want to know about it. But what do we do once we get there? Right, Um, what's your opinions on on negotiation? Is there a standard rate card or is there flexibility when you think you have an opportunity to help some people? So I would say when you're a negotiation stage, UM, there's always room. I think you should always have room. Um. I think if you're selling the salespeople, they kind of expect it, you know. Um. They do tend to forget about it, though. They don't you know if you do. If I'm a firm believer that if you do your job well enough, you take their guard down of like, Oh, I'm gonna make this person sweat to the end of the month or the end of the core. We'll get a better deal. It might be K now, we'll get it down to we'll get it. We'll get discount if we do it. If they like, you know, like like it's last Monday. I was getting tons of or it's probably not last Monday, the Monday prior. I was getting tons of emails. Right and did July q three. People are like panicking, like I Q two is bad. I gotta get these sales and people are off me crazy discounts. I was like, Hey, we just don't have the opportunity to buy it right now. I told you I'm not going to be pulling a trigger on anything until into August. You know, Um, I think people pretty much almost expect it now. I think you you know my old so here, my thing, my old C R O at three Pel Central, Dan Salazar, he told me, he told me this great concept about negotiation pricing. He said the problem is that people shop with their own pocketbook all the time. So, yeah, you might not have a hundred grand a year to spend on software, right, but this is a business and what happens is, if you're familiar with L A X, the airport out here in Los Angeles, it's right on the ocean and there's the ocean and then there's a berm, big huge bump right, big huge hill that separates the two. So if the tide's rise and doesn't get on the runways and cause absolute chaoscars, planes can't be taken off and flood on a flooded runway. And he said if if the planes start back back here, I'll do this for the video. Right, the planes start back here and when they take off they have just enough room to clear the burm right. But if I'm a plane and I take off right here, I'm gonna hit the Berman crash into the water. And for those that might be listening and not looking, I just moved my hand forward a little bit more right. So give yourself that starting room. So it baffles me when anybody, and I see it quite frequently, starts off with discount of pricing right away. I've got two major software suppliers who started off with this is what our prices but this is what I can offer you if you signed by the end of the month and you've got two weeks left to pull that trigger. Why are you taking all your runway out right now? Start with what we call full pop. Give me the full pricing up front. Anchor it, let me sit and stew in it a little bit, and who knows, I might go okay, that's within our budget. No holds Bart. I'm just gonna buy it and I need to get this thing done. I'm really interested in using this tool. I know you are going to work well with us. And then you don't even have to give me a discount. You say more revenue. Right, if you have the discount, then you have the opportunity, because you know now we play the cat and mouse game for two weeks and I'm just waiting for that discount. Just depends on the kind of buyer. I am right, but I think. I think negotiations are you know, it is a healthy thing to have. Um, I mean again, you negotiating marriage to some extent. You don't compromise, because then the guy walks into Chris boss's point, the guy walks out of the house with one Blue Shoe and one brown shoe. So there really isn't any such thing as a compromise. Somebody's you know, if you give a discount to win a sale, you didn't compromise. You lost the negotiation. Right. Uh, technically speaking, you lost it. That's why you're giving them the deal that they want. Um, but you need to have negotiation and flexibility depending on your growth model. Some companies say, Hey, pay your walk and they're fine with that and they'll make their they'll make their nuts somehow. Um, but I think negotiation is really healthy. I think where a lot of people go wrong in negotiation is they end up how they end up a lot of account executives put themselves into a negotiation because they didn't do the right things after the demo. And I have sent this many proposals in my sales career and for everybody that's listening, I'm holding a big fat zero. I have never sent a sales proposal in my life.

Anybody who wants pricing for me can take a contract. It's a unilateral agreement. You're not saying you'RE gonna buy, but it has everything you need to see, from pricing to what I call the more important stuff, and I say this on the phone with them, which talks about the relationship we're gonna have moving forward. For instance, if you want out after your first year, you have to let us know sixty days from your renewal day, or you automatically renew at a three month three month cycle, and I had to tell people that in software because I want them to go wow, nobody else is telling me that. Do the things that other people won't, so you can accomplish what others can. Jerry rice quote. I love that quote because it's so true. Be Transparent with people and tell them the things that other people aren't going to because they're going to remember that. So I would say that people go yeah, well, can you send it over? Yeah, Ryan, it sounded like you said you and your boss are gonna need to look over it together. I can get a contract together for you. You're not agreeing to anything by taking a contract. It's a unilateral agreement. Be Saying Hey, what we've talked about, I can provide upon these terms and conditions at this price. It'll have everything that you need to see, from what it costs to our terms and conditions to the implementation schedule and any guarantees. Right, the more important stuff, the stuff that's like, hey, how does the contract work? And then if you look at it and you too don't feel comfortable with it, or we need to make some changes, or even you say, Hey, our CFO actually needs to sign off on it. We can make any of those edits later, but at least you have something in front of you to show your boss. Does that sound good? Yeah, sounds great. I would the thing that holds most people back from closing the deal is you have a proposal sitting out there now chat. This is not gonna work if you're working in enterprise sales, rfps, R FIS all that. I get it. I get it right. I've never worked in those industries, thank the Lord. Um. So obviously that's that tactical information is not gonna work because some you know, government contracts. We need a proposal. We need an official proposal. It's a price game. I get that right. So again, eat the fish, spit out the bones. But of the people that I've worked with, I mean, how many people really are out there sending our FIS and R FPS right? Not a lot, not a lot. I'll tell you that like it's not. Or everyday listener probably that's dealing with those constantly. There's a lot of SMB, mid market and even enter price to some extent, sellers out there who are just firing off proposals because that's what we've been told is the next step. Dude, if you're interested in anything and you want to see the price, great, Hey Ryan, want to make sure you know at the end of the demo. Hey Ryan, want to make sure you have a pen real quick. You ask about pricing, right, grab, grab pen and paper for me real quick. You're that interested in just seeing the price, you can write down what I'm about to tell you. But if you want to have something physical, you can take a contract. Eliminate the middleman, eliminate the friction, eliminate the path of least resistance. Why put another blocker in my way? If you want to see price and all the information, here's the contract. And when I sold logistics software, I think, anecdotally speaking, it felt like one out of every three deals would come back without another conversation, just signed because they had the contract in their hands. They can't, they can't. You can't get the deal if you don't if you don't have a contract, like, what are we doing? Yeah, I mean the point of the the point of the proposal, is so they have the information they need to make a decision, which then requires you to send it anyway. So you're just putting an extra step in the process. I've never understood the idea of like a formal proposal. Um, uh, you and I are cut from the same cloth there. In my own business, I don't even I don't have a contract, but people who want it's just like, when you're ready, I'll send you an invoice. Right, you pay me and then we'll get started. Oh, you want to know what you get. Um, you know, here's an overview again, if you weren't paying attention to everything we've covered so far. But when you're ready, here's the invoice, you pay me, we get started. That's what that's the conversation I have now. But but when there is contracts involved, it's it's it's so interesting. It's like, well, I'll send you the terms and conditions and, Um, you know, here's the contract. When you're ready to go, all you have to do is sign and we'll get started. Like, I don't understand the idea of a proposal. What's your proposal? Um, you know, I never really get that. So I think that's really interesting. Um, from a negotiation perspective. I love your thought process there. Um, I think that a lot of organizations, going back to Um, just how great sales people are these days, really struggle with how to think about where to make concessions. Um. I'm not a big fan of discounts at all, but I am a big fan of revisiting or repackaging. Right. So instead of offering something as a discount and somebody wants it's like, oh, it looks like the price isn't gonna work for you because it's not gonna work out your budget or whatever. Why don't we just revisit what you're trying to get from a package? So right now your price is x because of x, Y and Z. Um, if we eliminated this um or you can add on right, I'll give you some freebees, which kind of provides that level of support. But I'm not a big fan of discounting at all. I like to repackage different different framing Um, but you're just still trying to help them feel like they're getting a deal done. But at the end of the day, discounting Um shows that perhaps you...

...haven't done a good job of understanding the margins in Your Business and Um, and that's that's again going back to the sales process. But every every industry, every vertical is so different. In some cases, like you said, it's almost expected certain commoditized products especially. So it's a it's a really interesting perspective there. Um. So you know, I know that you've got a fun event coming up and I don't want to I don't want to take too much more of your time, but to land the plane on Um, some of the things we've covered today. Um. The last question I had was you'd mentioned that some companies may Um, uh, may not feel like it's okay for you to represent the brand. And I don't know. Um, I I know that as a startup guy, being able to develop my own TIKTOK or develop my own content has never been an issue, but some bigger companies it seems to be like a big blocker. Any real advice for some folks that might be working for companies that, Um, if they want to go and take action on some of the things you said, get out there, create their own content, but they're being blocked. Like you know, some people don't even let you post on Linkedin, for example, without approval. What do using your advice for for a rep that's working in that type of industry or or company? quit? quit, quit. You're not going to convince some otherwise. You know this. You'RE NOT gonna. It's it's already hard enough when you're a sales leader or any any type of like department head, to cross collaborate and try to get people to not just understand, because getting people to understand a selfish. You just got to get them to think critically right and try to get people to think, not understand. Um, it's already hard enough. So you're talking about an individual contributor having a tiff with marketing because brand for their brand security officer, because we don't want people posting stuff on Tiktok because God forbid they and your Personal Tiktok and you're wearing a milk boys t shirt and so everybody assumes you support some side of the political party because it's somebody that was on their podcast. You know what I mean? Like there's so many bad things that can happen for a brand in that regard. But the solve from a marketing perspective is then create brand awareness training for people, enable the people in your organization to look out for these things. Right. You're so you're a brand security officer, you're a CMO, you're the you're the what do they call it? You're like the Holier Than Thou you are the Fountain of Knowledge, unless you're not, which might be the case. Spread your knowledge, then, and let people know how to do this properly so you can enable them or, better yet, get people that actually work your organization to work on creating more social content instead of hiring a bunch of yokels at an agency, which I'm not against agency work. I think agency work can be great, but when you start finding marketing teams that are just Oh, I have an SC know a person that does that. Well, what does the Seo Person At our company do? Right? Um, it's just you have to do better, I think, to our original point, you just have to do better. The people that are already doing it have to do better. For the individual contributor, where it's out of their control, though, go somewhere else. If your company is like telling you what to post on Linkedin and giving you templates to help dry business and you can't make your own free thinking decisions to do it, Jesus Lord have mercy. What do those one on ones look like? You know what I mean. Somewhere else. That's that would be my advice. It's probably not the best advice, but if you're going to be that pigeonholed to that extent, like that's like saying like. That's like saying like, Oh, you know, it's if you don't use my script word for word. You know what I mean, like as a cold caller. You know it's the script should be very stuck to, very serious. Should be like key things you're saying in the script that are very important. But if I used, you know, like don't say I, you know, use we or US partnership language, right. But if they're replacing a you know, one tiny word here and there's something, you know, I don't know. That's another finicky thing for another day. But it's like did you gotta have some flexibility and autonomy for people, man, like, at the end of the day, like you've got sales leaders that are smoking pot on linkedin lives, given sales advice, like it's it's not the gen x world anymore, dude, like people are, people are much more relaxed, people are much more much less reserved, and at the end of the day, we just want to learn something, man, we just want to learn something. And Look, if I'm a prospect WHO's going to go through the length to try to find this person's personal tiktok account, which should already be private anyway. There's brand security awareness training, piece number one. Make your personal stuff private. Then, like, are we really gonna, you know, crap our pants about that? Like, Dude, that person obviously needs some help if they're that serious about finding something that complain about right. That's a that's a story for another day. But we have to do a better job of enabling our reps, and reps also need to understand it's not your it's not the only fish in the ocean. Even even in this market right now, it's still a candidate market. Seeing people get hired. As a ES SDR is...

...making good money right now. People are still hiring, the wrong companies are letting people go. The right companies are hiring right now, though. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's a really strong place to land today's conversation. Uh Chat, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on some of this stuff today. If folks want to reach out to you, clearly tiktok is a passionate channel for you, whether it's personal or professional. Maybe, if you guys are good at sleuthing that out anywhere else, uh, that folks might be able to reach you if they want to continue this conversation or learn a little bit more about sales doctor. Yeah, Linkedin, Chet Love Grin, Um, you'll see my full my full name is Chet Love Green, a k the sales doctor with a little stethoscope. Um, but linkedin is the best place. Um, I have everything you need in my feature section links to all my stuff, Tiktok, instagram and free resources, whatever we need, my podcast, the other podcast I'm launching with Hatch Adventures, whatever you want to look at, it's all just on Linkedin. That's like the central hub. Just go to Linkedin Chat Love Grin, L O V E G R E N. You'll find everything you need. Amazing. Thank you so much for your time and enjoy your daughter's tenth birthday today.

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