Revenue Champions
Revenue Champions

Episode 76 · 1 month ago

76: What is declared intent and how to drive more of it (with Gaetano DiNardi, Growth Advisor at Cognism)


This week, Alice de Courcy, CMO @Cognism is joined by Gaetano DiNardi, Growth Advisor @Cognism to talk about the problems with assumed intent and how to grow declared intent. In this episode, Alice and Gaetano discuss what is declared intent, benefits of ungating your content, marketing predictions for 2023 and more.

Hi there, and welcome to another episode of Revenue Champions. Really excited today to be talking to Gaetana di Nardi, who's a great advisor of many companies like Alice Gong and also US and also previously VP of Great at Aura. So in this episode of Revenue Champions, we're going to be unpacking the problems with this whole idea of assumed intent UM, what we mean by declared intent and how you can drive more of it. It's kind of a lead on from a lot of the content we've been putting out around this whole lead gent to demand gen shift UM, basically addressing the way that fundamentally buys, the way they want to buy has changed and the bar is much higher now. So if you don't adjust on marketing for this um and soon you're going to struggle to remain effective and efficient. And obviously going into twenty three and the economic situation, I don't think this has ever been more of an important topic to cover. So yeah, excited to get into it with the guitar. A welcome, thank you, Alice. That was a very warm and beautiful well gun um see subject here maybe one of the most important, So excited to dive in and see where we where we get in this podcast interview. Thanks again, Cool. I think if we just kick off, we should probably start with definitions because I think there'll be people listening too, were like, what is assumed intent? What's declared intent? Um? So yeah, do you want to demystify that is for us? Yeah? Sure. I mean at the end of the day, the assumed intent stuff really fell into the old school m q L lead gen bucket. So so, UM, with that, you're you're talking about a short, short term sales focused strategy where unfortunately you do have extremely low close rates and high volumes of what I would consider to be junk. Um, you're creating sales and efficiency by prematurely pushing contacts down to sales that are not yet ready for sales conversations. UM. And so examples of that is, you know the classic content syndication leads. UM, you met somebody at a trades show booth or an industry conference and you assume that they, you know, want to be put into a sales motion. After that, UM, you host a live hangout, virtual digital hangout online, or a webinar or something like that. UM, and you assume that all the sign ups and attendees want to be talking to sales after that, which most of them don't. UM. And then of course the dreaded gated content downloads. You know, we can get into some of that as well if if you want, on today's talk. But that is the premise of like the assumed intent, and we'll start there amazing. And then I guess on the flip side, what would you define as declared intent? Yeah, I mean, when when you're talking about declared intent, you're looking at ways where you don't really need to do that much qualification at all, because they're coming to you raise their hand uh saying that, um, they are ready to start a real serious evaluation of your product or service. And when I think about you know, if you were to do a declared intent audit of your website, UM, you would look at things like inbound calls, pricing requests, demo requests, free trial starts, and possibly even UM request for information that come from sources like G two and Gardner, because if you think about the traffic sources from from those sites, it's very high intent for the most part. It's research evaluation level, consideration stage set. You know, I'm looking at a couple of different providers. I need to talk to a couple of them to see what's the right choice. But could you even sularize It's like it's some one who's actually expecting your cool Like that's kind of the difference. Yeah, yeah, that is brilliant. Yeah, it's when when it's not it's not into uptive, they're expecting your call.

So assume the tent is often interruptive. Declared intent is I'm mixed. I've been waiting for you. Yeah, this re expected behavior that I assumed I would get, but I knew I would get when I took this action versus you download any bit or bit. We all know now that you're probably gonna get sales follow up, but that's not the reason behind why you to the action. Yeah, exactly, And I'll give you some like real deal street knowledge. Like most B two B marketers UM and B two B salespeople and people who are um hip to the to the scheme they're just putting. If they really want to read your stuff, they'll go to fake email generator dot com. You know, they'll they'll find ways around it if they just want to get the content UM and so UM, you'll be not only doing all those things I said before, but you'll also be clagging your CRM with junk ghost data. Um. So the problems that come with that first model are are you know, it's quite a laundry list of problems that you just really want to avoid. And then I'm just gonna just ask this follow up question, um, because where would you say, like intent data fits into all of this? Um? Yeah, like how how are you do you find or think that it is effective? How when it is being used can it be effective? Where does you see a scum relation to these two very different tactics. Yeah, yeah, so, Um. One of the biggest problems with outbound in general for the most part is that, um, it's out it's ice cold, and not only is it ice cold, but it's a complete guess and so UM, imagine you know, if you're in sales three and you have to do cold calls and cold emails, um, that the odds are just so massively stacked against you because you have to you have to be in many cases right you have to figure out like Okay, um, maybe this is the right person I'm reaching out to, but I have no idea where this potential thing sits on their priority list. I have no idea if um, this is a problem that they're even thinking about or dealing with right now. I have no idea what their perception of my brand is. You know, it's all just like a lot of again going back to the assumed thing, there's a lot of assumptions being made where intent data can alleviate some of that is. For example, if you're a marketer and you see a surge of activity on your pricing page from a target account, it might make sense to say, after these you know things are happening, meaning um, you know, certain amount of visits on a certain page throughout a certain duration of time, it could indicate that there's some real serious interest from one of those target accounts happening. It might make sense then to come up with a plan, a messaging and outreach plan with sales together and say, how do we go on an attack this? You know, how do we slice and dice this? How do we go and figure out who it's going to be that we're going to reach out to based on this information? And it's basically just going to increase our odds of success rather than it just being a completely cold, blind guess. So that's the way I see UM, the intent data UM making the world of outbound better, changing it from ice cold guests interaction to at least something that you know is already warmed up. And I guess like in that way that if we could make a comparison with like assumed intent. It used to be that those m q ls, those ebit downloads were that for salespeople, it was like, guys, this is really good news. They've downloaded this ev you know, there's some level of intend that when went Actually that really isn't the case. Like now we're in a...

...different world. We have tools that can give us real intend data and insights. UM plus also contact data, which will be more accurate than someone filling in the form of fakey fake email address, etcetera. As well. Arguably different different scenari different world. Different Yeah, different scenario, different world, and UM. You know the thing, the thing that I also want to point out is the importance of understanding traffic sources. UM. Somebody going to like a pricing page or UM a on demand demo video page or something like that. UM is very very different than UM. You know, I downloaded up you know, white paper or I, Um, I attended a webinar and maybe and who knows if I even attended it. I just subscribed to the thing, and maybe I just wanted the on demand replace. I could zoom through it because there's somebody presenting that I really like the understanding. Yeah, so understanding that difference is key. Amazing cool. So I guess we've touched on this a bit, But are there any other like negatives you would want to call out around this insum assumed intent way of working in approach to marketing? Well? Yeah, I mean the negative list associated with this assumed way of doing sales and marketing, it's it's really long. I mean I could, I don't know how much I want to go and like rip it apart right now. I certainly could, but yeah, there's there's a lot more to it, and I don't know, maybe we just move on and like, I'll sprinkle more of that in as we talk. Yeah, so I guess me now, and I like what we shouldn't be doing, so assumed intent is bad. Um, so let's talk more about like this whole declared intent approach. Um. I think this is like where people get stuck because a lot of people will understand that this makes a lot of sense, like it's how they would want to buy, but like at the same time, they're like, Okay, but how do I get started? Like where do I begin? Like what are the things that I should be doing to kick this off? Right? So you know, first of all, I think you do have to have your demand capturing program in a really tight You have to be running a tight ship. You have to know exactly what you're doing in order to capture intent. You have to know how to treat demand capture channels differently from the demand creation channels. On that quickly, I'm sure there are people people who don't know the difference between like creating demand and capturing demand and then also what the channels that you might use for both Just yeah, sure, sure. So when we're talking about demand capturing, you're you're marketing to problem aware, solution seeking people. That that is a difference. Um, when you're doing demand creation, you're marketing to people who may not be aware fully of the problem. Um it's a long term education focused strategy. UM. So those are the mindsets that you need to consider when you're doing demand capture versus demand create or you know, long term demand gen um. The other thing is that demand capturing has declared intent, so automatically the close rates are going to be much higher, sales productivity and efficiency is going to be much greater, sales cycles are going to be much shorter, and um. The bottom line is that you're gonna have much more serious people in the in the product evaluation consideration set for your for your whatever it is that you offer. And so some of the example metrics for for the demand captures is going to be your classic lagging indicators, things like attended a demo.

UM, you know, maybe after a couple of you know, sales engineers or or or demos are presented an actual quote where a proposal gets sent UM, and then you actually can start to look at things like your lead to win percentage, your quote to win percentage, and that starts to become the formulation of real pipeline evaluation. That can open the door to understanding how successful and how how good is your marketing and how well are you doing um. And then on that captured devil and piece like typically what are the channels that like activities that that you're running? Yeah, sure sure, sure sure so from my perspective, right, everybody has a slightly different one. But this is for me, after doing this for a long time, this is what I really boiled it down to. You have bottom of funnel s c O. All right, pain point s c O. You have paid search primarily Google. UM we already kind of talked about like review websites, but certainly G two, trust Radius, all those kinds of sites definitely play a role. You also have This is something a lot of companies aren't thinking about maybe good enough, but UM the importance of affiliate and aggregator websites. So these are sites like business dot com, us news, UM PC mag right there. There's so many of them, even much smaller, smaller domains that are just kind of popping up doing list pages, comparison content. Believe it or not, those things are heavy hitters and contribute massively to UM a demand capturing program. UM. And if you're one of the smaller ticket items like let's say you're a email marketing automation software or your business phone cloud phone system, right, UM, these are going to be even more important because those are typically a higher volume game. UM And then I would even consider intent data. I would consider intent data to play a big role, especially if you have very long enterprise complex sales cycles. I would see intent data playing a role in your demand capturing and so um that's that's what I think about when it comes to demand capturing, and it really comes down to inbound channels that are driving traffic through high intent keyword searches. So we're talking about things like comparison searches, alternatives to searches, um review oriented searches like you know, for example, is jasper ai legit? Is jasper ai worth it? Pricing related questions, how much does it cost to you know, build a B two B contact list? How much does void cost? Um is identity theft protection worth the cost? That kind this stuff. Then you have integration related keywords, You have combo searches things like I need a password manager plus VPN, UM, buying process related keywords things like the best email marketing for Shopify B two B e commerce plus that, and then of course good old use case searches things like um LMS for corporate training. You know, I could go on and on, I could keep rattling these examples off. But when you're thinking about demand capturing, these are all the things that lead to a demand capture, but there's a lot happening before that as well. But this is this is the thing that I guess from that say that I think that's a great summary in terms of like this is where you should focus your energy and efforts and like auditing and planning around like actually the capture to be on the piece. And I guess when we get back to my question of like how do you get started in this new approach marketing where you're going down because...

I'm declared intent and saying goodbye to seemed intent, like get your house in order first when it comes to captured demand stuff, because you're probably doing quite a lot of this anyway, because you're even in that m QUEL old MPUL lead generation model, people are running a lot of this kind of really like bottom of funnel captured demand activity. But maybe it's blended into that like m QUEL picture, So I guess like it's segmenting it out and then just like getting your house in order towards all of those things that you've just mentioned before, you then enter the realms of create demand. I mean that's how I would think of it. But yes, correct, the thing is you got to think about covering the bottom of funnel first before you start, you know, doing a lot of type of funnel activities. Aside from the fact that you need good product marketing, good product market fit, good price and page you know, strategy, good feature pages, good product pages. Obviously you need all that stuff of UM. But once you have that, you still need to start doing the demand capture stuff because that's where you make the most ground and and and to your point of like getting the house in order, you know, segmenting it out, cleaning things up, getting the right marketers and the right positions on the field. UM. One of the big challenges I've seen, and I'll just give you an example, is having a mismatch of of marketing talent or marketing ability with expectations of producing uh declared intent or pipeline or demand capture. So imagine a content marketer doing content marketing at a SAS company and they don't have a background in demand capture. UM, they just have a background and kind of classic SAS content marketing. They're going to be pressured to be doing demand capture things and they don't have that strength, they don't have that skill set, and so a mismatch or a misalignment of skill sets to expectations and marketing are one of the big things that create that that tension, that problem of men. You know, I'm a good storyteller on social I'm not a good demand capture. Why am I being held to the standard of pipeline when that's not really my strength? And so understanding everybody's team strengths and marketing and having the mindset be kind of very distinct into what your role and responsibility is UM and tying that to that and north Star metric is key and I don't I don't see enough of that happening unfortunately, So on that I think this is touched on like probably a wider conversation that everyone's always interested in all structures and teams. I guess when you when you go down this whole new approach of doing things, and even just when we covered what it means to do capture demand, well, you've got like very different specialities of very different skill sets in there. So how would you go about starturing like the perfect marketing modern marketing org for um, yeah, we need optimizing for declared intent, sure, sure, so I would have demand captures. This is paid search, free trial optimization, landing page testing, and optimization right, those people who are getting more squeezed out of the existing traffic, affiliate marketers to manage and optimize those campaigns. The people who are doing the surround sound search engine result page UH strategies covering affiliate s c O and paid review site managers, long tail bottom of funnel pain point s c O, UM, influencer of marketing and campaigns that that may be more relevant to be to see, but I'm starting to see more B two B do it. That's the bucket I would have for demand capture. I would have all those demand captures in a pod, then shifting it away from to the people...

...who do stuff before the demand capture happens. These are the people who are the awareness drivers, the educators and UM, the people who are staying top of mind to that massive block of your total addressable market that's not in buying mode. These are people doing brand marketing, product marketing, messaging, the messaging and positioning right, storytelling and if you even if you want to call it evangelism, social video podcasts, webinars, community events, uh PR, comms, corporate marketing. All that stuff is not demand capture. That's the stuff that happens before, and you separate those people and you measure them differently. Then in a different bucket, you have the operational managers, sales ops, marketing ops. Uh, now that's being called revenue ops altogether. That's fine and enablement A B M analytics. These kinds of people. I put them in the operations bucket. Then the creative house designers, illustrators, videos, video video editors, video producers, UM, your front end DEV and web project manager. They belong in a separate bucket. And if I if I could snap my finger and rearrange marketing teams into this flow, I think B two B would be in a much better place because the roles and responsibilities would be much more clear. And I know a lot of people have a beef with that because they say, oh, you're just creating silos. Not true. You're aligning people to their specific strengths, and you're aligning them to specific outcomes, and you're making the expectations of each team and more and each group more realistic. And that's that's what it comes down to. Amazing, Thank you, Really interesting. I guess back to a bit more. We've kind of we've I think we covered the capture demand stuff and quite a lot of detail. But the other side of the coin, when you're really optimizing for declared intent, you're saying goodbye to m qs and go to content. Is this whole idea of the demand creation which we've we've briefly spoken about. But um, this is just like the understanding that actually, like I mean people quote between and of your market is not in bio mode at any one time. So there is this huge percentage of the market that we we believe us who evangelized this way of doing marketing, require consistent, continual attention education. Um, which as a philosophy is fine, that's great, sounds sounds sounds fantastic, But how does that actually come about when it comes to like the tactics and the execution of the day to day Like what does that look like to actually be executing demand creation? Yeah, this is great. So this is the flip side of everything us we've been talking about already. And I think the mindset you have to have when you're doing this, this is it all. I know that it sounds fluffy to say it starts with mindset, but it really does. You know, marketers, I think, and this goes back to the assumed incent problem. Um, I guess marketers have somehow they were they were trained incorrectly to believe that the job of advertising and the job of content marketing is, to some and even sales to an extent cold outbound, is to move people in market, that their techniques make people say, oh yeah, maybe I do have that problem. Maybe oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm in market now. Um, but none of that stuff really moves anybody into market. Buyers move themselves into market when something happens, and usually it's not your marketing or sales thing as the catalyst.

Usually what you do is not the thing that makes them wake up when they say, oh ship, yeah, I do need that. That only happens after a series of problems continue to fester in their in their life, and then they suddenly have to make a change because the pain becomes too great. So your job as a demand creator or to stay top of mind is to is to embrace that mindset and really to accept that. You know, how how often do you think companies change their their computer their laptops for everybody in sales or customer support, maybe once every six seven years. How often do you think companies change their their bank. Maybe never only maybe if something goes wrong. Um, how often do you buy a new car if you're a consumer, you know once every fifteen years. So car company think about a car company's marketing strategy. They got to fill the future funnel. And if not everybody is thinking about buying new car, but whenever that day comes, they have to you know, be at the top of mind. And so that is the that is the mindset you have to have. And then when we're talking about demand awareness education channels, we're talking about things like social LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, TikTok, all the organic stuff. Sure you can run ads there too, but it's not supposed to be legend driven ads. It has to be more creative ways to get people's attention. But you're just buying that traffic instead of spreading organically. It's the communities. You know, in the case of B two B, it used to be sales hacker for for B two B sales. Now there's there's so many of them. There's you know, the demand curve guys, there's traffic think tank, there's a partner hacker. You know, I can go down the list. There's so many of them. Offline media so um, some B two B companies are doing airport ads like maybe that only applies to some of the bigger ones like Zoom, but you know, direct mail, New York City, subway ads, things like that. Offside channels like guest post press and media, even audio channels, like we're talking a lot about audio, but it's podcast interviews, radios. Maybe even advertising on some of those channels like I Heart Radio, Spotify, Pandora, stuff like that video YouTube, video, Whiskey a loom. How are you making usage of all these different video platforms that are available now? Personally, I think video is the future and if you're not, if you don't have a solid video strategy for me to be, you're probably gonna be left behind. Then of course there's events, conferences, um, and then forums you know, Reddit, Kora, Slack, Discord. These are all places where people are talking about your brand, the things you offer. And so this is an overview of the channels that are out there for the demand creation staying on top of mine, and I guess like ultimately it's obviously gonna depend on your audience. Massive DASA just you need to find out where they hung out, Where are they hang out? Why are they looking for nation and education? And then it's about being there delivering that every day the best possible way and the best possible format that you can over and over again. And that's how you ultimately going to um yeah, get the benefit from it. Um amazing. That's it. So that's I think. Guess that's so let's assume now we're running this, we're fully all in, We've got our capture demand running. We've got to create demand running. Like, what are the actual benefits of outside of the fact that this is just the way that bars want to be salty today? Like, what are the other benefits that people can start expect to seeing from changing the way they do marketing and shifting into this new approach that's really focused on declared intent. Yeah yeah, Okay, So I think there's a lot of benefits apart from the fact that you're going to have shorter sales cycles, higher wind rates, um, you're gonna have a better pipeline velocity. All those things are true. But there's there's more benefit that most people don't even think about, and that... the well being of your sales team from just a day to day life and and grind perspective, right, think about it. How annoying is it for you as a sales I mean, how soul sucking is it to have to constantly pound the door on people who are not interested? How how soul sucking is it to get rejected of the time. Um, and you know, the change on the company expectations side is that you're no longer designed and incentivized to spam. So you're you're no longer designed and incentivized to prematurely annoyed buyers that are not in a buying mode. Um, who would probably and eventually request the demo when they're ready to speak to sales after being worked by marketing. So you're actually liberating salespeople to live a more productive and fulfilling life. Your your, your, your. They don't need fake kindness and fake encouragement and awards, prizes, games, you know, micro promotions, stupid stuff like that. Um, what they what they need is a more realistic way for them to achieve quota, get bonuses, get paid better, get get higher commissions, and not do a job that makes them want to rip their hair out every day. So it's it's I think the main benefit is actually the sales productivity and sales efficiency side, you're not wasting resources. You're you're you're not. Another thing is you're not hiring a massive salesforce to be sitting around spamming people. Now. One of the downsides to this is once a company does switch from m QL to demand capture, now suddenly you have you know, maybe dozens of sales reps that are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs board because they used to be annoying people spamming them um and now they don't have anyone to spam. So how do you make use of all these extra sales people now? And unfortunately a lot of companies are going to go and cut them um rather than deciding how to make better use of them. But you avoid sales organizational blow and you make the lives of sellers more productive, more fulfilling, and less soul sucking um and and you know that is the biggest benefit aside from the obvious you know, lagging indicator metrics that are going to enjoy an uplift as well. Yeah, I think it's great, And then I guess, like very passionately spoken on the sales side, but I can also attest to like just the freedom it brings from a marketing perspective, having gone through this process this year, and like, how much happier my team are not not having to spend their time um thinking about how they're going to create a campaign around as certain e book um, and that campaign living pretty much just in the shape of a link a few in link to now a form a zapp a cadence for sales and like that kind of being job done. Um, And now they're just like they there is unlimited opportunities almost for them to be creative, to think about ways in which we can talk to our audience and educate them all the time, always on in the best way possible. And there they are so much happier for that, And the types of marketing we're doing is so much more exciting. Um. Yeah, so I guess that's that there's out side as well. Your marketing team ultimately will also be freed up to really start thinking about um, more creative, beneficial marketing that really drives proper demand, rather than just getting stuck in that ebook campaign. Generation Hampster whale, which is the painful so true, so true you want to laugh real quick, I'll tell your story to the point of making marketers lives better as well, and less source sucking. Um. So, one time I was tasked with actually creating an e book.

I won't mention the company or the manager's name. This is a long time ago. And I was like, all right, well, you know, let's make it the greatest possible thing ever. Then, if we're going to get it and and cause people to give us their contact information, shouldn't it be a super high valuable asset. Shouldn't it be some exclusive research about the market or the people in this market that you can't get anywhere else. Like, if we're gonna do this, let's make a killer asset. Let's make it worthwhile for the people who are um going to give us their contact information through a form. And and the manager's response was no, no, no, no, that's too much work. We don't need to do all that. We just need to get leads. So all you need to do is take a big string and collection of our blog content, mash it together into one long form guide, send it to the design team, have them package it up, and then it's done. You see efficiency. And I'm just like, oh dear that. That was the moment when I knew, all right, well, What the worst part of this is is that probably don't read it anyway because it was gated, that it came with a PDF from Like that's a terrible experience as well. That's the point. That's the point. And this is the story I always tell people because I also have a musician background. I used to be a music producer in New York. And imagine if you are a musician, right, do you know how much love and care musicians put into their music creation, spending countless hours in the studio, perfecting their delivery, um mixing, mastering, editing, even the songwriting component. Right, they pour their heart into it. When that piece is done, you know a musician has taken a very high amount of pride and putting that song together. Right now, Imagine if musicians gated their ship. Imagine if the musicians said, hey, you gotta you gotta put your contact information into this forum if you want to in my song. Nobody would I mean, unless you're like a top performing artist who is already famous, it would never work. It would never work. And so I put that I give a Bob marketing that same perspective, Like, first of all, you should take a lot of pride and care into what you're creating, and it should be a masterpiece, just like a musician would do. And then you have to think about the distribution behind it. You want people musicians make music so that it can be hurt, not so they can just sit in there in their room and listen to their own songs and not share it with anyone. So the whole point is that the message gets consumed and distributed. And so if you're yeah, I was just gonna say. I used to say, like if you try and flip like the script was saying, like how much would I pay for them to actually read this or consume that content not lessarily read versus like how much would I pay for that contact details and them not to read it? And precisely change that mindself. It's a big It's suddenly all becomes fair, I feel, derecisely. And this is the final point. And I'm not trying to plug in cognism here as like a promotion or pitch, but I'm just saying the reality of all time, the reality of what's happening, is you don't need to do that. You had to do that in two thousand and ten because there's no way to get people's contact data. There was no way to to build lists and um you you know, to build better targeting capabilities through LinkedIn for example, you didn't have something like cognism available, so so you had to do this UM form collection stuff just to get B two B contact information so that you not only well unfortunately they did go and spam you quite heavily after doing that, but they would also use that for better advertising capabilities on platforms like LinkedIn for example. But you don't need to do that anymore because you have much more advanced technology like cognism. And so this immediately feeds into the whole point of why don't need... do the assumed intent collect contact info and prematurely push people to sales um with annoying, interruptive marketing, which is the most counterproductive kind of marketing there is. You can just use cognism to skip all that, and so that's the point. Yeah, which is great. I won't waging around it all. Yeah, exactly. Amazingly, Well, I'm gonna just because you wrote a great article on this, UM, I believe what you gave gave us some amazing insights into our recent blog. But I thought we would just cover as we are going into twenty three, some of your like core predictions and bets for for marketing teams going into twenty three. Yeah yeah, you know, Um there's a lot of good stuff in there. Let me just pull it up and refresh my memory. So okay, um, there's twenty points in here. I think I'll maybe pick out like the top three top Yeah, alright, so the top three I would I would probably boil it down to mark through people is the new wave, and so think about it. Traditional advertising channels are becoming more clogged, more cluttered, more expensive. Targeting decay is becoming a real problem. People are paying less attention to ads. Um, there's more ad blocking, people just skipping stuff, people ad fatigue, right, all that stuff, And so the new way to get people's attention effectively is marketing through people. So community, influencer marketing, affiliate marketing. I know we talked a lot about some of that stuff today. Um, but you know, relevance is a problem for B two B marketing. Trust is another problem for B two B marketing. The decay of advocasing advertising targeting capabilities that that that's a problem, and so marketing through people really solves a lot of that UM, and I'm going to stick to my guns on that one being a big deal for for next year. UM. I'm also going to say that the declared incent over the assumed intent is something that really catches on in a big way next year. I think there's a lot of people leading the charge on some of this stuff. I know, cognism, of course, is you know, I'm obviously a big you know, change agent in the world of B two B marketing online pushing this this narrative. I know the Refined Labs folks and Chris Walker are also doing a phenomenal job. But I really do feel that because we're being forced now to move away from that growth at all costs and and and shift to the most efficient ways to grow, that declared intent over assumed intent is going to be a new playbook that catches on UM for next year. And I do think the final takeaway in all of this UM is gonna be that marketing teams are going to have to do more with the existing budgets that they have, and I think marketing budgets are going to remain flat. Maybe I don't think you're gonna see many more companies putting the gas all the way to the floor and spending more, you're you're probably gonna see flat budgets are probably reduced. And um, one of the one of the things you'll see happening with that is probably tech stack consolidation. So if you're a platform company like HubSpot, Salesforce, Adobe, Zendesk, you're probably in good shape. But um, if you're a single point solution and other companies bundle what you do into their thing, and companies can ditch your single point solution and go use the secondary or third capability of a hub Spot, even if it's inferior quality. They're going to do that in order to consolidate. And so I do think a lot of those nice to have single point solutions are going to be in big trouble. Um. There's many more predictions than that, but those are kind of the highlights. And I guess on the the spin that into a more like post vendor, we could say that like, if that is you and you're thinking, okay, like I might be in trouble here, don't make it worse for yourself by doing m wells Um, I'm focusing on like assumed intent, get...

...ahead of the game, start doing proper decurred intent marketing, focusing on creating demand where it doesn't yet already exist. Um, and you can beat your competition sometimes by just doing things better and doing it smarter. Cool. That is a great way to close it out. Great recap, and uh, that's a good way to put the hammer right right on the on the nail. So I love it great, Thanks Katani, thanks for joining us today. That was a really good session. And yeah, I hope everyone who's listened has learned something new. Yeah. Thanks Alas.

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